http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/19/politics/main5711797.shtml

1) Kris you did good with the Amtrak statement in the 1st post. In the second post you stated that further investment in infrastructure would cause it to be profitable as a fact. You cannot state events not in evidence as a fact as they are speculative. On that note Americans are notoriously attached to there cars and without major gas taxes to encourage rail transport of cargo and people amtrak will not be profitable.

2)I am unsure how you made the statement that a program that costs 900B-1.2Trillion can reduce the deficit. The link is not available so I am unsure as to how you reached that conclusion.

3) Social Security..third rail and need it’s own thread.

4)Ensuring is general welfare is not a primary function of Government and is not enumerated in the Constitution. The Constitution does exist to Promote general welfare. Sincere people can disagree on the best approach to that goal.
5)Thomas please , please , please tone down the rhetoric and develop some facts. I am sure we agree on most things and I firmly believe that a liberal democratic position can not withstand facts and logic. Conservatism is from the brain where liberalism is born of the heart. You do yourself a disservice and weaken your position by relying on general theory alone.

6) Dan…THANK YOU for participating in the town halls held by Griffin. any Details would be appreciated and perhaps this could get closer the original topic.

Do you think it’s good that our countrymen demand things of the government that the government is incapable of providing? Did people used to demand these things of the government? The American people were suckered into allowing the government to grab more power in the last large economic crisis (the Great Depression) and now we’re being suckered again. 30 years from now when Healthcare fails how are we going to remove it from our system? People will be just as dependent then as they are now (to current entitlement programs). Our government grows in size and NEVER contracts itself. You ask me what I’d like to see spending stopped on because you know of the dependency of millions of people. I’d say that I’d liked to have seen NONE of these things come into existence! Adding more vote buying program to the list shackles our government and our people ever more.

That being said, if I were given unilateral control of our state and federal governments I would reduce the number of recipients of entitlement programs by as much as possible as well as reduce the military’s budget to 2x our closest competitor and invest more in NASA (+ other forms of research) and higher education.

Back to my previous post: Would our country be in its current financial crisis (the largest crisis to face our country in its short history) had we not gone down the road of big government? The obvious answer is NO!

We need to make a decision with Amtrak, are we going to support a rail system or aren’t we? Up until now we have not provided the necessary investment, and that’s why Amtrak is failing. We’ve made a decision to support a system of highways and invested the money necessary to do that, but not the same for rail. If we made the investments necessary, Amtrak could be self-sustaining, and that is a fact.

And I demand social security? How about the entire country demands social security? You just said there would be an uproar if we tried to change up the age requirement, but you want to ELMINATE it and you think that would be just fine? Look at what President Bush tried to do and how that went over like a lead balloon.

And it’s the national DEBT that is $12 trillion, not the deficit, big difference. And what’s the biggest contributor to future deficits (which contribute to the debt)? Healthcare costs! And guess what? The CBO says the House healthcare bill REDUCES costs and the deficit (http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2973)! Thank you for bringing it all back around to the point.

And who’s talking about the government providing services in the healthcare debate? No one! Service providers are and will continue to be private entities (unlike some European countries), while almost half of the funding for healthcare will still be private, even under the latest proposals. So, again you seem completely out of touch.

You seriously need to look at what is real instead of some worked up fantasy in your head. On the political spectrum we are well to the right of England, France, Germany or Sweeden. To try and argue we are anywhere near China or Russia, or that we could get anywhere near there quickly just makes you seem lost. Ensuring the general welfare is a primary function of government, whether you like it or not, and America does LESS of that than most other industrialized nations on the planet, which is right where we have chosen to be, but don’t pretend we do more than what we do.

And I still have yet to hear one concrete idea from you on how we’re supposed to get to your government-free utopia where no one pays any taxes. Stop all spending on Medicaid? Medicare? Social Security? Unemployment benefits? Military? It’s easy to say government spends too much and is inefficient, a lot harder to convince the country that we should elminate these services so many rely on every day. Philosophy doesn’t get you anywhere with me, where’s the policy?

2) The fact that we have to change the Social Security age requirement proves that social security has failed. I would be enraged if my investment company told me that I had to wait more years than promised to receive dividends… that company would probably go out of business… then get bought up by the government… which would then proceed to do even worse. It’s time to realize after our government’s repeated failures and over-extensions that we cannot afford all of these services YOU demand of our government. It’s time to stop trying to take the easy way out because there is NO easy way out. We cannot trust the government to provide effective services to everyone. Your Marxist utopia is a beautiful dream that ruined the powerful nation of Russia and massively slowed the progression of China. The government is a labor union to its employees and a free handout to its residents. Even now with a 12 trillion dollar deficit (40k / citizen) you do not see how ineffective our government is? Would we have ever gone so far below if government hadn’t expanded after FDR (who didn’t want to see the programs he created become permanent. Even FDR was incapable of taming the ever growing nature of government)? My government is going to collapse because of your pig-headed whims and misplaced compassion. Thank you, Sir.

1. Many have argued that the reason Amtrak is losing money is because their budget has never been big enough to invest in the infrastructure needed to make it profitable. We spend less than 2% of what we spend on highway construction on Amtrak.

2. Social Security has been incredibly successful in doing exactly what it was designed to do. Do we need to reform it for the future? Yes, and that’s a discussion we need to have as a country. But there are relatively simple, if politically challenging solutions. We could solve the entire Social Security deficit for the future by simply raising the age of eligibility, which should always have been indexed in the first place.

Neither of your examples prove the point you are trying to make. Facts and evidence matter, even in a philosophical debate (which I try to avoid because they’re pointless in moving forward policy).

I know I’m presenting no facts again. This is because I am speaking of political and economic theory just as the founding fathers did when designing the constitution. Political theoretical realities should be taken just as seriously as political “experimental” realities. However, Amtrak and Social Security are obvious examples of experimental proof of the governments ineptitude. Surely you don’t honestly believe that political elites in Washington (a majority of whom were elected for their pretty smile and their willingness to accept money for selling their vote) could know better how to spend our money than we do on a family by family basis? Money in Washington is spent NOT based on what is right, but what is political expedient (the bottom line for politicians is always how they’re going to fill their war chests). You can complain about their pay but CEOs do NOT have mixed loyalties between their company, their lobbyists and their political party. Surely, when knowing this, you do not want to expand this governments reach and budget???

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
Alexis de Tocqueville

“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.”
-Norman Thomas (six-time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America)

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/special-topics/files/who-can-afford.pdf

You’re right, far afield, I’m done.

Yes. The Military would be more “cost” efficient if it was in the hands private companies and competition was some how possible. The fact that the Pentagon and State Dept will cub-contract out security and services to the likes of Blackwater and Haliburton is evidence that private companies are more capable at controlling costs. If private companies weren’t Federal and State Governments would bring those abilities in-house. Politics make it impossible to have any kind of efficiency. Whether you look at the Air Force tanker contract being re-bid for the 3rd time or Bob Riley handing out 13M no bid contracts, government does not follow any of the ideal competiton rules of economics. It is a monopoly and monoploies are always inefficient in respect to the consumer(taxpayer). All that said there are some things such as the DOD or DOT that must be monopolies. I personally do not want to pay a toll on every road.

I am unsure as to employee count, but the DOD ranks 3rd in dollars spent after Health and Human Resources, and service on the debt.
http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts1009.pdf

If we accept numbers you provided average tax burden in Alabama 8.5% and combine it with the average Fedeal Tax Rate(12.68)we have a combined tax rate of approxinatelt 21%. Taxes are the single biggest expense endured by Americans
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.

Wow…once again, an argument with no facts. Where is your proof that the private sector would do so much better than the public sector at everything?

Do you believe the military would be run much better if it was in private hands?

Well the CIVILIAN employees of the Defense Department make up about a THIRD of federal government employees (and that’s not even counting those in uniform). Add the VA and Homeland Security and you’re pushing HALF.

I have no problem discussing cutting back, but I have yet to have any person who raised that issue tell me WHERE you want to cut, so we can start having an intelligent discussion.

I believe the #1 expense in everyone’s budget is TAXES! We pay the federal government to do things that private companies can do better! Government employees sitting comfortably at their desks with no concern for job security (they will never be fired), no care for performance (their wage increase schedule is already predetermined) and no fear of competition will NEVER outperform a group that works out of fear of losing their job, their position or their company (which could go bankrupt if not competitive). The rest of our money is spent even worse! The government, which is basically a mafia that is viewed as legitimate by the people, is in the business of wealth redistribution. We spend money to LOWER people’s incentive to work! We spend money to make our country less competitive! The solution to our financial problem is NOT to give people things while making our country go bankrupt!

Perhaps the healthcare system needs reform (although I don’t believe in a healthcare system that could meet the needs of all people while being affordable for the poorest in society. I also don’t believe that healthcare is a right.) but placing healthcare in the hands of the least efficient component of our society is not the solution.

As for Bright, I wasn’t arguing he had anything to gain. His constituents had something to gain by having an opportunity to discuss the issue openly, perhaps even with people who had differing perspectives on the issue. We lost out, not him.

That said, Kris you have not answered my question as to the perceived gain for Bobby Bright to get drawn into this debate.

“Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains”

Winston Churchill
“

I’m the one pushing to get tens of millions of people health insurance coverage, when the leading cause of bankruptcy in this country is medical bills, and I’M the one that’s insensitive???

Again, if you want to have the stimulus discussion, there’s another post for that where I went into much detail. If you want to continue to hurl insults and namecall, there’s plenty of other places on the web that would welcome it and return in kind.

just in case you didn’t: “as i recall, kriss, you favor davis for governor. you claim you’re not an idealogue, willing to listen to ideas from across the aisle.”

besides, my post wasn’t about YOU.

it’s about those of US out here in the work-a-day world scraping to get by.

save your bullshit excuses and statistics. all that needs to be said about that “stimulus” is in obama’s “jobs” summit. they’re scared. obama spent a lot of political capital in new jersey and got his head handed to him whether they want to admit it or not.

people are hurting and christmas is coming.

but god damn all that. the democrats have got to get their power play “healthcare” bill thru.

your response makes it plain there’s no one around you struggling to make their next house payment.

merry christmas, scrooge.

You constantly amaze me with your lack of understanding of anything about me…it’s obvious that you’re challenged by people who don’t fit inside the box you want to try and put them in.

1. Yes, I supported the bill in the House, did I expect any one of the Alabama legislative delegation to vote for it. No, I didn’t.

2. Do you just read selective posts here? If you want to talk about the stimulus package, there is a post to do that on here: http://www.theworldaroundyou.com/2009/11/04/fuzzy-math-with-alabama-jobs-and-the-stimulus-arra/

But the short answer is that ARRA kept the states afloat long enough to see the economy start growing again. Jobs always lag behind growth in the GDP, and regardless of the jobs that are being created, we’re still losing more than we’re creating (though that number is less each month).

3. Rep. Artur Davis is exactly where he should be, casting votes in the House while also trying to build a base of support in his run for Governor. Again, refer to the post above if you want to talk about what’s been done with the stimulus money in Alabama.

4. No, I don’t think we should have spent the ARRA money on a stadium and I doubt Rep. Davis does either.

as i recall, kriss, you favor davis for governor. you claim you’re not an idealogue, willing to listen to ideas from across the aisle. let’s see what you’ve got:

you’ve obviously got your panties in a bunch over this healthcare issue. (turns out there was a bit more to this than you thought) i would submit to you that there’s nothing more important to one’s health and welfare than a job.

i don’t think i have to tell you i was against the bailouts/buyouts, (bush and obama) the “stimulus” package and locally, building a domed stadium in birmingham.

that stimulus money was supposed to create jobs. it isn’t creating anything. if you believe the numbers, unemployment is over 10%. (some believe they’re cooking the books, that it’s likely between 15 to 20%)

remember “shovel ready” projects??? well, i have one for you right here in birmingham. the domed stadium.

answer this question, kriss: what better thing can artur do than to get to montgomery than lobby obama for the money to get that stadium built?

that project will get bulldozers moving, concrete pouring, steel hanging, walls, sheetrock and carpet moving. people WORKING. (of all races)

don’t tell me he doesn’t have the influence. he can party with him during the super bowl but not lobby him for the unemployed in this state??

and on top of that obama has announced he’s holding a summit to try and figure out a way to put folks to work. (something his stimulus package was supposed to do)

by most estimates there’s over THREE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS of that money that’s unspent. the money needed to build a fine facility is a drop in the bucket from that.

again, i was vehemently against wasting money on this project. but if we’re gonna waste it anyway, why not have something to show for it?

and don’t give me any garbage about bob riley. he’ll fold like a cheap lawnchair in this environment.

how about it, kriss??? i’m reaching out.

where are you?

and better yet……..where’s artur?

BTW, did Segall make a statement about Roger’s no vote in AL-03? haven’t seen anything in the press and his web site is uninformative.